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Join Dr. Deb Berman, assistant dean for admissions, and Carol Teener, director of admissions, along with two current medical students from the University of Michigan Medical School for answers to your questions about getting into medical school and more. The conversation ranges from GPAs and personal statements to the culture and experiences that make Michigan unique. 

Resources

To learn more, visit our admissions website, and you can follow the University of Michigan Medical School @UmichMedSchool on X and Instagram.

Transcript

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Welcome to Michigan Medicine Presents, a podcast exploring a wide range of topics facing the field of medicine. I'm Pratik Vadlamudi. I'm a medical student in third year at the University of Michigan

Donovan Inniss:

And I'm Donovan Inniss, a fourth year medical student at the University of Michigan. And today we will be sharing the secrets of getting into medical school with you.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

If only, if only there was such a secret. We both know better than that. I remember when I was applying, I was so worried about whether I would end up where I wanted to go, whether I'd even get in, do I have the grades? Do I have the scores? And I realized I'd been working hard this long, it would shine through in my application.

Donovan Inniss:

I feel that. I remember thinking that I was going to botch all of my interviews and everyone's going to hate me and it's going to be like, "Wow, Donovan, who are you?" But today I am here at the end of that process, happily in front of Deb Berman and Carol Teener.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Yeah. And those are exactly who we're joined by. Today's med school hopeful listeners don't have to listen to our recollections, instead they get to hear from Dr. Deborah Berman, the Assistant Dean of Admissions at the University of Michigan Medical School and a Professor of OBGYN and Ms. Carol Teener, the Director of Admissions at the University of Michigan Medical School.

Donovan Inniss:

Dean Berman and Carol, our Director of Admissions, will be answering all of the questions that you have sent in about getting into medical school. So we're going to dive in really soon after they say, "Hello," to us.

Carol Teener:

It's great to be here.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Hi everyone. We are excited to be here. Pratik and Donovan, thanks for being here with us.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Of course. Thank you guys for coming in and speaking with us today. So we actually have some actual questions that have been submitted in the past by real pre-meds who are understandably very worried about the admissions process. I'll start us off, so my first question from a real student is, "Do you think becoming a physician is a calling? I've heard that phrase used before and I'm curious what you all's opinion is on it?"

Dr. Deborah Berman:

To be honest, I do personally. As you mentioned, I wear two hats here at Michigan as the Dean for Admissions and then also as a practicing physician, as a Maternal and Fetal Medicine Specialist in OBGYN. And it's a calling, it is a passion that I think starts for some people at a really young age, for others later in life. But you're called to serve people. Carol and I talk oftentimes, it's one of the ultimate service industries because you're serving human beings. So I'd say yes.

Carol Teener:

I defer to Deb. Honestly, I think having you answer this is really important because it's so to the core of your being as a physician and you live that out in your work and I'm so pleased that our deans are clinical physicians, they aren't just administrative. So I'm deferring to Dr. Berman on that. That's what I've seen shine through our students too.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

I think that makes a lot of sense.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

I think an additional point that I like to make is, and we may talk about this in a little bit, when we read applications, you can feel people's calling to medicine. No two people have the same reason that they're pursuing this career. They're called to it for different reasons, but we feel passion, we feel calling, we feel excitement when we read applications and that's really exciting to us.

Donovan Inniss:

Amazing. Thank you both. In that same spirit and knowing that you two are phenomenal individuals, what do you think makes the University of Michigan Medical School more unique than other medical schools? And not in the spirit of comparison, but more so, "This is the University of Michigan. We are proud Wolverines." Why do you think we're unique? What personal things are there that draw you to our program?

Carol Teener:

You know what? I love that question because I've been in admissions here for 18 years and over the span of all those years I've seen collaboration, faculty who want to teach and this real spirit of, yes, being a Wolverine and having that big school spirit. Uniquely in the last five years, excuse me, eight years has been our change in curriculum to have you all be in the clerkships, the clinical space the second year. And I know from speaking with students, they've really appreciated getting into those spaces earlier. I also find that students taking advantage of the other professional schools on campus is really cool, and when they clue into like, "Oh, I don't even have to get a dual degree in public health, but I can collaborate with students at the public health school or faculty at the law school or business school." So I love those interactions. I'm curious for you two, what do you think is unique about Michigan?

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Yeah. I think that's a great question. It goes back to what Dr. Berman was saying earlier, so every faculty member here has a tripartite mission of research, education and of course, clinical work. And that goes back to what makes Michigan pretty unique is that everyone here really wants to teach. I would say every faculty member I've worked with has been enjoyable to work with, has wanted to do this, has come to Michigan with the intent of helping students become physicians. I think we're pretty laid back and I think it's really hard to find a place that has such a good attitude while at the same time providing such an excellent education.

Donovan Inniss:

I think I'd piggyback off of what you said about the preclinical year. Having that one year of dedicated basic science training before just hopping into three years of clinical work, I think is very, very special. I would not do it any other way because I felt like I was able to see patients as a student physician ASAP and now as a fourth year, I feel great and confident going to residency. And the only other thing I will say to Pratik's point is that you can come to Michigan with any idea and they will not turn it around. They will find a mentor for you, a person who are interested in that work. I was interested in bidets at one point and I still am, as you all know.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

I've got one in my apartment.

Donovan Inniss:

Exactly. As we all should have bidets everybody. So just put it out there. But I came with that research interest and I found not one, not two, but maybe four or five different mentors willing to take on a project like that. Michigan, I think the sky's the limit.

Carol Teener:

Well, don't you find, Deb, when you're helping as a dean, you help fourth years or third years at the end to prepare for their upcoming, "Okay, where am I going to residency? How am I preparing for what schools to apply to and get my act together with my CV and all that?" The students have all these wonderful clinical electives in their third year and they go off and do different rotations and it's cool. You always talk about, "Oh my gosh, I just met with the fourth year."

Dr. Deborah Berman:

I do. I love that. The deans here work with the students when they're applying for residency and it is so exciting for me because I think it's this perfect bridge from when I read your application as a pre-med, I've worked with you clinically and now I see your CV and your application for residency, and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is what you were passionate about when you applied. This is what Michigan gave you the opportunity to do." Because of our one-year, pre-clinical, to your point, Donovan, your third year, you can do hundreds of electives whether locally, regionally, nationally or globally, that allows you to use your passion, take that calling Pratik, and then do it while you're a medical student. And that's unique. I think that's really special. I am so proud of our students and when I get to see for example, you graduating, following your passions, it's an honor.

Donovan Inniss:

Not just bidets everybody.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

That was a great lead into my next question, which is something that I feel like a lot of pre-meds are wondering about, to you both, what is the ideal medical school applicant?

Dr. Deborah Berman:

When I think about our current medical students, I want somebody number one, who's definitely going to thrive here academically. An ideal applicant will have shown that they have the academic chops and the academic interest and the drive and the resilience and the passion to hunker down and study and do the work, collaborate with their classmates. They will have curiosity. You don't come to medical school knowing everything that you need to know, but you are excited and curious and willing to again, figure out how to study, how to learn, and then somebody who really wants to contribute to medicine in a particular way, whether it's somebody who wants to be an entrepreneur, somebody who wants to practice rural clinical medicine, somebody who wants to... And then fill in the blank.

I would say an ideal candidate is somebody who has the academic strength. No, you don't have to just be a science major. We love diversity of thought and diversity of experience and we also want people who want to be change agents and help decrease the gap with healthcare disparities and help shape the future of medicine. I say this to our students on the day that they interview here, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, the people that we admit and matriculate to the University of Michigan are going to be the physicians who take care of me and my family, our communities, again locally, regionally, nationally and internationally, and so we want people committed to this life of service. It looks different for everybody. Carol, what do you think?

Carol Teener:

Oh, I'm going to go to Donovan. I'm curious about what Donovan thinks because we have students on our Admissions Executive Committee and they are equal members on the committee. They aren't students on the committee, they're committee members who happen to be students. And you have gone through two years of reviewing applications and having thoughtful discussions with a very diverse committee, a lot of anti-bias training. I'm curious, what you have found is your... I don't know if there is an ideal candidate, but what do you appreciate when you see someone's thoughtful work?

Donovan Inniss:

I think I appreciate, it's a bit cliche, someone who knows who they are and can articulate that in their application. So if you are able to reflect on where you've been and where you are and where you hope to go, I feel like those three questions that are asked, you can come forth with a good application. And I think an ideal applicant, air quotes, "Ideal applicant," showcase that strength I guess. And what comes across I think is the passion. And it could be passion, like Dean Berman said for anything and everything, but as long as that passion comes through and you know where you're taking it, I feel like that is the applicant that makes my eyes twinkle a bit or makes you want to be like, "Wow, this person needs to come to Michigan because we can turn them into a powerhouse of X, Y, Z thing that they want to do."

Carol Teener:

Make the world a better place than when they came into it.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Yeah. That's all really great. I think for me, when I was applying, I just remember thinking on the other end, "How can I make myself look like an ideal medical school applicant?" And I realized I shouldn't be making myself look like anything, I should put on the paper who I am, what I like, what I want to do, and then the school that best fits me would ideally want to accept me. And that's exactly what ended up happening.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Well said. And the work you've done and you're doing, when you look at the application, it has all of your activities. When you write about that in your personal statement, we look back at your activities, the two marry, they really bring you to light and help us understand who you are and what you want to do to shape the future of medicine.

Donovan Inniss:

I love someone who can reflect. If you can reflect on everything, I'm like, "Oh, that's it." What space do you take up in this area that you're in? That I think is a key thing I look for in an application. Someone who says like, "I did this thing and here's how it has affected me and those around me." And I think that's big, big question to answer, because as a physician that's what you're going to be doing as well.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Always affecting the people around you.

Donovan Inniss:

Exactly.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Absolutely.

Donovan Inniss:

And on that note, speaking of applications, there is this question that comes about probably every single year about GPA. I'm going to read it word for word. I'm not sure how to phrase this question per the question, "How many GPA points from the average GPA of U of M Medical School's student body is acceptable to apply? For example, if one has a GPA of 3.7, do 1.8 points away from the average GPA of University of Michigan medical students who have a 3.88, does that impact their application essentially, someone's application?" So if I have a 3.7 and Michigan's Medical School student body average is about a 3.9, should I apply or not? Do you look at our GPAs? In what kind of way, essentially?

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Donovan, I appreciate your reading somebody's actual question and I can feel their worry and concern and curiosity about our GPA. And what I would say is, referencing back to what I said a few minutes ago, we want people here who are going to academically thrive. So is there a specific GPA or a specific MCAT that is going to be a cut point that below we are not going to consider? In reference to the GPA, no. But I will say, we look at an application holistically. If somebody is struggling on the MCAT and struggling with their GPA and all of their coursework, we don't have something concrete that lets us know they're going to thrive here and we want to matriculate 170 students who are going to thrive and graduate. We want to set people up for success. Again, I wouldn't say there's a particular GPA or a number that we're looking at, but rather comprehensively, how is somebody going to thrive here in our curriculum?

Carol Teener:

In our holistic review, we don't ascribe a certain number of points for this GPA or this MCAT score or this school that you graduated from or this major or double major. We don't have that. So we do see everything in the portfolio, so we're going to see all the coursework in every semester, whether things got a little rocky at some point, how did it go up hopefully, and the trajectory upward and how did you respond to some challenges. So we do look at everything in the academic portfolio and in everything.

Donovan Inniss:

I'm going to second that, it is a genuinely holistic review from my time on the Admissions Executive Committee. So thank you both for speaking to that. I think a lot of students worry about whether or not they are truly looked at for all that they bring to the table. And I think from my experience, you are, you are holistically reviewed.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Thank you for highlighting that.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

That's very good to know. And of course that's a question about academics and academic success, but more broadly, if you had to choose three characteristics that you look for in a med student, what would they be?

Carol Teener:

I think Dean Berman said some characteristics that I find for myself too. I love your curiosity, I love how you all work in teams and how you care for other people and that's shown through just sharing resources and helping your classmates and I love that. So those are some things that I look for, because of the med students have that, I want to bring people into this community who also have that curiosity and passion and caring for others.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

I'd also add altruistic, wanting to be here for true reasons, to serve human beings. Committed, it is definitely a life committed to serving others. I know I keep saying that, but we see that in an application. And an additional one, I would say it's not one word, but hardworking. The two of you, has med school in addition to being fun, has it been hard work?

Pratik Vadlamudi:

It's required all of the characteristics that you've just named. I can point to so many examples in my clinical year where altruism and compassion were paramount to make sure my patients felt cared for and that I was learning. And it's been a lot of work. Step exams are no joke, clinical year's no joke. Becoming a physician is necessarily a very difficult task, because it's a very important job and so it does require hard work and it makes sense that that's something that we look for in future medical students.

Donovan Inniss:

I agree. It is hard rewarding work. There can be days that are grueling for sure and days where you say sometimes to your loved ones, "Hey, I'll be studying for the next eight, nine hours if you need me, I don't know, page me or something." But it takes dedication to get through medical school. But again, at the end of the day, it's rewarding.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Incredibly rewarding.

Carol Teener:

Well, and the resilience you show to get through the tough times, it's important for applicants to show us how resilient they are in whatever ways they can too. And if they're willing to talk about those tough times and how they got through them and the resources they used to get to where they are now, I think it's important. But applicants need to be willing to share things that they are okay with talking about in an interview. Because whatever is on the application, the interviewers are seeing their application and they want to talk about it.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

The other thing I think which would be fun to hear from the two of you is, our admissions team is not looking to just place 170 people into a class, we are building a cohort. So you must see the diversity in experience and thought in the classes that you're part of that our teams built. So you must feel these attributes come to play. In what ways do you feel them?

Donovan Inniss:

It is terrifyingly reassuring how on-spot Dean Berman is with that assessment, because you look at the different classes and you will find people in a range of just experience and brilliance. I've had Olympians in my class, I have had people who've worked with the Obama Foundation and the Clinton Foundations in different countries in Africa, around the world, people who have had startups and worked on Capitol Hill, it's just like, "Who are these people?" Then you have others who did bench research for years and years and years or others who walked dogs and pretty much found their love in walking dogs and they were able to articulate those things and successfully got into medical school. So there is a range of persons that come into Michigan Med and it is brilliant to see the diversity of thought and experience that we have on campus.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Let me be clear, I'm no Olympian and I have not met Obama, but still I got into medical school somehow. And I think that the reason that my class is, I feel like we have a very good class dynamic at our university, and that's partly because the admissions team has done such a good job at admitting people who are just going to be genuine classmates, who are going to want to care about each other, themselves to some degree and their patients to a larger degree. And that just shines through when I meet people at restaurants or when I go on walks with my friends or meet people on the clinical space, in a team of four at the VA, it's always a good time to work with my classmates.

Donovan Inniss:

That's great. I will say the one word that I think came to mind as you two were talking was growth. And I feel like a lot of our students know how to grow and when it is time to grow and not comparing themselves to other classmates or to their experiences around them, but they recognize something in themselves that is driving them to grow, to be a better human, a better physician and just contribute to the world, I think in a all-around good way. So growth I think is a very big part of our medical students at Michigan.

Carol Teener:

I like that.

Donovan Inniss:

Okay. And on that note, our next question, what are the, air quotes, "Best things," to have on your resume other than your academic records to be admitted into medical school?

Dr. Deborah Berman:

I don't even know how to answer that in a succinct fashion, because I think everything that we've been talking about answers that. Of course, everybody needs to take recommended pre-medical coursework, so that's going to be on everybody's application. And then I'm going to say, yes, and. So to your point, Donovan, if somebody is interested in becoming a physician who works for advocacy, then I'd like to see that on their application. If somebody is interested in incorporating research into their future, I'd like to see that. If somebody is interested in working with people with disabilities and trying to improve healthcare for that population, I'd like to see that on an application. I can keep going on and on.

Does the work that you're doing now as a pre-med have to be where you end up or land in medicine? Absolutely not. We actually look at that and there's not always a direct correlation, sometimes there's a direct correlation. I know somebody who said they wanted to be a child adolescent psychiatrist, they had done the work pre-med and they're a child adolescent psychiatrist as a faculty member. But I think everybody's going to have such a diversity of experiences, so there's not one thing that we would want to see an application that we are doing, as Carol said, check marks. You're not meeting a specific list. It goes back to what you were saying, a holistic review.

Carol Teener:

Yeah. Like I said, we don't ascribe points for doing certain number of things because people will perhaps need to work their way through college in order to pay for it and they have limited time to do some other things. We don't want to penalize that particular person. Everyone has their own unique situation with their families, taking care of family members, et cetera, but we do need to see the clinical work, work with patients in some fashion. Shadowing is great as an entry into the profession, personally, I wouldn't want to see just shadowing on someone's application. It can be not as engaged with patient care perhaps. So I would say everyone's situation is quite unique though.

I love seeing service to others and that again is very different for different people. We can see people doing service to others who are dedicated to a certain thing like Special Olympics say, for years and years and years. Some people will just have entered into that world of Special Olympics for a year, it's okay, you're stretching your mind, you're trying new things, so there is no bonus for either one. It's how you reflect on it, how you talk about it, how you see that it's affected your life. So it is definitely much more than the academic record, but for each person, it's so unique.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

I think it relates to what I was saying earlier about how faculty here are clinicians, researchers and educators. Well, if you walk that back, they were all pre-meds once too, and so what were they doing when they were pre-meds? I would imagine a good portion of the pre-meds applying today would want to have clinical experience, maybe some research experience at least to know if it's for them or not and maybe some experience in leadership or qualities that might make a good educator, because those are all things that we're going to have to do one day when we're physicians as well, things that we're going to want to be good at, especially the clinical work.

Carol Teener:

Yeah. That's a great point.

Donovan Inniss:

To Carol's point, everyone doesn't have access to doing specific clinical work sometimes, and so if you're able to talk about in your application, how your work or what you're doing relates to being a physician in the future, whether it is through mentorship, teaching or leadership, I think that's a lot, that covers all of those boxes that we're getting at.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

You're not a doctor yet, you can't treat patients yet, so of course you're not going to do exactly what you want to do one day. How can previously rejected applicants stand out as re-applicants?

Carol Teener:

This is an interesting one because they say, "Stand out as re-applicants." I often get the question of, "Will you know I'm a re-applicant and are you comparing the applications? And how does this look? Is it a negative?" And it's not. It's a fresh application, fresh cycle. What are you presenting now? I do recommend that people take a pause and reflect on the previous cycle, talk to their advisors. They can certainly schedule a feedback appointment with us in the month of May, we're not pre-med advisors, but we're happy to give feedback on the applications. If they haven't been doing the good wonderful hard work during the application year, it is tough to show a different type of application.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

I like to think about it as a marathon, not a sprint. And I know students have this urgency to get admitted to a medical school and to matriculate. But to Carol's point, if you are looking to do an immediate reapplication and your application isn't really different than the previous application, I think it is a time to pause and reflect, to Carol's words and point.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

And I think that also makes sense to call it a marathon, not a sprint, the whole thing, you've got to do medical school and residency and it's very understandable why you want to get in as soon as possible because you want to become a doctor. It is best if you can make sure that when you apply you're putting your best foot forward. That question relates to my next question to some degree about maybe applicants who might find themselves feeling unusual. And the reason I say that, is that this is how the question is worded, "Being a non-traditional applicant, sometimes it's hard to gauge myself against a standard set for more recent graduates. What is your advice for mature applicants and their activities on their application? For example, I run a small PT business, do research at a local community college and care for my son, but my activities don't look like recent grads at all."

Dr. Deborah Berman:

I appreciate, Pratik, that you read the pre-med's exact question because I don't think that's the verbiage that we actually use here. I don't use the phrase non-traditional student, because I think that is then stating that there's a quote, "Traditional student." If you look at the University of Michigan student body, each year, somewhere between 10 to 15% of the class is straight out of college, that means 85 to 90% of the class has been out of school for some period of time. And as we were just talking about that medical school, residency, fellowship and faculty life is a marathon, there's not a sprint to get there. So many of the activities or the life experiences that somebody has had prior to medical school makes them a stronger applicant. It makes them oftentimes, as you said, have a maturity and an understanding of society, community, the disparities at large and makes them oftentimes even more committed and driven to this career. So I wouldn't use the word non-traditional. I would say it is somebody who's had life experiences that are helping drive them to this life of medicine.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

The answer makes a lot of sense.

Donovan Inniss:

In the same vein, a question that we got as a follow-up, importantly I'll read it, "Can being a parent, guardian or caretaker be considered an activity on an application or is this frowned upon? It takes tons of time, effort, and patience, yet," this applicant says they feel family-oriented activities might not be as clear-cut as going toward the medical career essentially. So could this be seen as negative?

Dr. Deborah Berman:

The way I think about it is, somebody's lived experience is crucial to who they are. So if somebody wants to pursue a career in medicine, if they are a parent, if they are a guardian, if they are a caretaker, that's part of who they are and I am excited to read about that and see how they weave that into their drive to go into medicine. So by no means is that a negative, it is part of who they are and part of their journey and as we were just talking about, our admissions team is building a class and each of those experiences will help contribute to the class dynamic in really special important ways. At Michigan, we have a Parents in Medical School student org, so we have a number of students who are already parents or become parents or guardians during their time here. And so that's a richness in life and experience that they're bringing to their classmates, to the school, to their patients. So we appreciate it.

Carol Teener:

I think pointedly they can put it as an experience, they don't have to, it's really a choice of what you put on as experiences. It wouldn't be this huge negative. You could weave it in as part of your essays, reflections, things like that. So there isn't a one way to do the application.

Donovan Inniss:

Completely fair. And in that same vein, our next question talks about this writing, a very impactful part of the application, the personal statement. So what makes a personal statement stand out to you? And if you could describe the elements of some of your favorite statements from memory potentially?

Carol Teener:

I love it when students are able to weave some impactful moments in their life with why they're on this journey to becoming a physician. Why is it that they need the MD as a tool to improve patient care? There's so many roles on the care teams, why is it the MD is the path for them? I don't appreciate so much when they reiterate their CV in the essay and tell us all about the experiences, as we have just read all about their experiences. I also don't appreciate too much when the essay is about someone else wholly and isn't about their reflections. So those are just some things that come to mind for me.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Having sat on the Admissions Executive Committee, does anything pop out for you, Donovan?

Donovan Inniss:

I think the same things that Carol talked about, when someone can place themselves on a piece of paper, I guess. Again, where you come from, where are you today and where are you going and what passions has taken you there? I don't like, again, pretty much taking your CV and putting it in the personal statement form. That to me, you're talking about your experiences, that's great, but you're not really telling me who you are and which you're coming to do and why, what is driving you to become a physician? Why do you want that MD, that DO to move forward in the future essentially? So I don't think there's a secret sauce, but I do think that if you're able to again, reflect on who you are and the space that you take up and how you impact those around you and how that's going to form you in the future, I think that's important.

Carol Teener:

I do think too with those experiences, there's a brief text box where applicants can let us know what they did in that experience and how it impacted them. I would avoid, again, talking too much about someone else in that description and their story.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

You're referring to the activities section?

Carol Teener:

The activities section, correct. Yep.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Excellent.

Carol Teener:

All of those little most meaningful experiences or otherwise.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

When I'm reading applications and I find myself saying out loud, "I get you, I see you. I want to have you here at Michigan." I reflect back to say, "What did they do in that?" And it was not a recapitulation, it was speaking truly about why medicine, what is somebody's why and it's not what they think I want to read, it's not what they think Carol or other people on the committee or screeners want to read, it's somebody's true authentic why.

Carol Teener:

Yeah, I love that. Like you said earlier, if you're genuinely putting yourself on that application and very authentic, I feel like you'll find a good fit for yourself and we'll find a good fit for our mission here at Michigan.

Donovan Inniss:

It should almost be like a light bulb when you're reading, "For this applicant, I'm reading this personal statement and I can track why you're going to medical school or why you want to pursue medicine. It's almost so clear cut that you should be a physician in some capacity."

Dr. Deborah Berman:

I also think about the fact that I will be operating with students and I will be seeing patients with students and these are the students who are going to be graduating with a block M and going on and caring for future patients and who do we want to be collaborating with and working together towards a better good of caring for others? And you can feel that when you read those authentic moments in an application.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

I'm sure it must be very enjoyable to read all these students' personal statements and try to get to know who they are as a student. Another question that I feel some pre-meds may be worried about, and this is, quoting from someone's direct question, this student has dealt with health problems that made it challenging to do well in their core pre-med science classes, how would you prefer that they explain this in their application? They say here they don't want to have to pay for an entire post-BACC program when they're confident that they could do well in medical school.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

We have a section on our application where we give students an opportunity to reflect on parts of their journey that may have been challenging. That's an opportunity to reflect on a part of your journey that has been challenging, whether it's family dynamics, health situation, a pandemic, etc. On the flip side, as Carol mentioned a few minutes ago, we would like to see an upwards trajectory. And again, we would like to see evidence that you are going to be able to thrive in a curriculum where you're learning complex medical facts that will allow you to care for patients. So if somebody has uniformly struggled in their undergrad years, it is tough to say that there's evidence that they're going to thrive in medical school. So if there are points in somebody's education where they have struggled, please openly speak to that, explain the reasoning, the why, what happened, and then show us how you've had an upward trajectory.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Yeah. It's like we were talking about earlier, medical school is rigorous, it is hard. While it's very rewarding, you need to be able to complete medical school to a satisfactory degree for your patients in the future. My next question is actually a series of questions, I think these are all pretty, maybe some common myths or common questions that students have, so I'm going to ask them all at once. The first one is which month will you start the admissions process and do you have early decision? Do you accept international students, especially those who have gotten their degrees from universities here in the United States? And do you see all the schools that someone applies to besides the University of Michigan?

Carol Teener:

At Michigan, we don't have an early decision program. We accept asylee, DACA and dual citizens and permanent residents into our medical school, but not international students. Students do have to have 60 hours of coursework in a US-based institution. I'm surprised by the question that someone thought we could see all of the schools to which they've applied, we cannot see the list of schools. We can only know who has applied to Michigan.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

You said one of the questions was, which month do people start to apply to the University of Michigan Med School and other medical schools? Applications open up in June. And I would say that the majority of applicants apply early summer. Certainly applications are coming in throughout the fall. I will note, we start screening in July, we are already interviewing by September. I love the University of Michigan's process from an equity perspective, we leave spaces and account for the fact that people will be applying through the season. So even though we are interviewing all the way into February, there will be people who will have applied in July that we are interviewing in February and there will be people who applied in late October that we will interview as well. So we account for the people who are applying throughout the season. I absolutely encourage people though, if you know you're going to be applying to medical school, aim to get your application in as early as possible. I think it behooves you.

Carol Teener:

I think it's great at our school that no matter what time you interview, you have the same opportunity to be admitted, so we don't interview for a wait list late in the season.

Donovan Inniss:

What does the Administration and Admissions Committee at UMMS specifically do to maintain its positive, inclusive, and supportive team culture? Are there any new additions or changes that are planned for our school in the future?

Dr. Deborah Berman:

I could go on and on for a really long time about this. I think that the culture of our medical school is really special. When you think about the medical school, we've got admissions, we've got the evaluation and assessment team, we've got the curricular team and we have an entire freestanding, fully funded unit called M-Home, which is dedicated to creating community building support, helping with professional identity formation for our medical students. Pratik, you've been really actively involved as an M-Home leader, will you speak a little bit about that?

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Yeah. I've been an advocate, a student representative of M-Home since my first year in med school and I'm actually the President of M-Home now, something that I'm very proud to be able to help my class build community, make sure that we really feel closer to each other and to our future patients between classes. I think something that a lot of students worry about in medical school is, "Oh, I'm going to be so busy, I'm not going to have enough time to make friends, or I'm not going to have enough time to feel connected to my class or to Ann Arbor or wherever I end up." Or, "I want to be able to get to know people in classes above me for mentorship." And older classmates may want to get to know people in classes below them just for a sense of giving back to the community.

And these are all things that M-Home addresses, whole class events, small events, four or five people, we can make tea together. We've baked together. Whoever wants to come, can come and it's really just a great opportunity to spend your time doing something other than just studying or just going out to eat, spending lots of money. It's just a nice way to spend time with people in your class that you care about.

Carol Teener:

And we appreciate your leadership on that.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Thank you. Appreciate it.

Carol Teener:

And isn't it fun to be with Dr. Imsande and working on those-

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Dr. Imsande. Yeah.

Carol Teener:

Dr. Wixsom working on the programming. I appreciate that our school has a robust mental health program that was started July 1, 2021, and it provides therapists and psychiatrists to our medical students for confidential, no-cost help. And really the wait time has decreased dramatically from being in the regular system of trying to find an appointment with a provider, so I love that. And the students really were instrumental in helping get that off the ground and I see that all the time where students are promoting change and improvements and feedback and they're on all the committees and aren't they on the Anti-Racism Operating Committee with you?

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Yes.

Carol Teener:

And just really, really pressing and pushing us to make improvements and it's a wonderful thing.

Donovan Inniss:

Awesome. M-Home is amazing and very, very helpful. Any other new changes or planned additions for the University of Michigan in the near future that you can think about?

Dr. Deborah Berman:

As Carol said, eight years ago, we moved to this one year pre-clinical, so that's not a change. We continue to hone that in what is already a well-established curriculum. We listen to our students, we accept feedback. One thing that we are also not changing is the fact that diversity, health equity inclusion are all woven into our curriculum from the M1 to the M4 year, we're not changing that. What we do do again is we welcome feedback from our students with how we can do that even better, how we can improve on patient scenarios, so that our students are learning about how to take care of a diverse patient population.

I'll speak to that, personally in my clinical practice, we take care of a really diverse patient population here. So that needs to be something that our students are learning about. For example, as a Maternal-Fetal Medicine Specialist who does fetal therapy, we're the only fetal therapy program in the state of Michigan. So patients are referred to us not only from Michigan but also from the Midwest and beyond. So that means that our patients come from every walk of life, whether they're unhoused, whether they're from the upper Peninsula, whether they're from Indiana or other surrounding states. And that means our students get to care for really diverse patient populations, urban, rural. You both can speak to where are some of the places you've rotated that allow you to care for really diverse patient populations?

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Yeah. The massive University Hospital, the Center of Michigan Medicine's complex where you see all sorts of tertiary, quaternary complex patients with multiple comorbidities and lots of problems and trying to figure out how we can best help them right now and going forward. I also rotated through a primary care clinic in Livonia where I got to see patients coming from all over Southeastern Michigan, and it's just been such a great experience to see people coming from everywhere, even Ohio. And just overall, I think that we're uniquely situated on the cusp of urban and the cusp of rural and we can see everybody.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

In your internal medicine experience, do you rotate at other places that are unique?

Donovan Inniss:

We rotate at the VA, everyone has to rotate at the VA, so we get to serve the veterans here in the States and that is a phenomenal, phenomenal privilege to be there to see how the federal system works and to learn from a lot of the persons. They're in a team setting as well. I rotated at an Ypsilanti for my family medicine rotation as well, so that was a more diverse population. And also I did my Domino's Farms rotation with the Japanese Family clinic. So I got to go to Japan after, actually a few months ago because of Michigan again. I did my, [inaudible 00:47:38], rotation at Henry Ford in Detroit, which Pratik would be doing as well. Because of Michigan, I think we get a lot of connections, a lot of wide-reaching experiences to touch different communities and different lives and different patient populations.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

It only makes us more well-rounded doctors one day. It's only going to make me able to appreciate different people's chief complaints, different people's social histories more fully. And that leads to the next question, which is very related to what we were already talking about, what types of clinical care experiences do students receive in their first year and beyond?

Dr. Deborah Berman:

I would actually love to flip that conversation back to the two of you because you can speak to the experience you've had with clinical exposures from day one.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Yeah. Of course, you come into med school and all you've got is some orgo knowledge and some biochem, "Great, I'm going to go see patients and ask them what's wrong and diagnose their condition," you can't do that coming straight out of the gate. M1 year is all about setting you up for success during your clinical year. Like Dr. Berman was talking about, chief concern, which allows us to think through a patient's chief complaint, come up with a good differential diagnosis, understand what the next steps are and try to translate it to when we're actually going to be in the clinic, actually going to be in the hospital.

Doctoring is a longitudinal program that takes all four years to turn us from pre-meds into physicians. And part of what that does is, we learn better how to take a history, how to do a physical exam. We have dedicated standardized patients that allow us to practice doing the physical exam before we have to do it on the real deal. Essentially, we're trained for success from day one. And of course there's an elective, the clinical reasoning elective that first year students can participate in, in which they actually get to go work in a hospital using the skills that they have just acquired. And this really helped me when I was on the wards as a second year student.

Donovan Inniss:

I think to add to that, we have our IPE, Inter-professional Education curriculum where you do learn how to interact with other members, important members of the healthcare team. You also have in the doctoring curriculum, we have different conversations about not just the medicine but also the social aspects of health, which are if not more important than the basic science of things as well. So this curriculum, pre-clinically and from M1 to M4 year is making you a holistic, well-rounded physician from the jump. Students from their first day of medical school also get to join in on our different organizations such as the Hope Clinic and Delonis Clinic where you get, again before even entering your M2, M3, M4 clinical years, you get to work in clinics that are serving a lot of the most underserved persons in our community as well. There is not a lack of clinical experience even before you enter your clerkship years at the University of Michigan Medical School.

Carol Teener:

When you had your interviews for residency, were there questions about your training or your experiences or were they interested in your passions? And I'm just curious what they asked you in terms of...

Donovan Inniss:

All of the above, honestly. I think mostly were interested in my passions and how I was able to leverage those at Michigan. But there was almost this undercurrent of assuming I'd get training because I came from Michigan, it was like, "Oh, you guys have this twelve-month curriculum, pre-clinical, and then you just hop right into the clinical space." And there was never almost doubt in that integrity, in knowing that because the student came from the University of Michigan Medical School, he was ready to just pretty much enter the clinical space. That was a heavy hitter. They would look at me and be like, "You're a heavy hitter, you're at Michigan. We know you'll do good clinically, tell us about yourself otherwise, essentially?" So I think that was reassuring in knowing that because I had so much clinical experience from M2 year and beyond, that pretty much carried me through a lot of my interviews and allowed me to express all the other things that I could bring to the residency programs.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

That's a powerful answer, Donovan what you just said. For real.

Donovan Inniss:

It was genuine, everybody.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Thank you for sharing that. I mean that. You just finished interviewing for residency, have just matched.

Carol Teener:

Done the hard work.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

You did it.

Carol Teener:

You're doing it.

Donovan Inniss:

It's a good time, everybody. We're on the other side.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

It's been very excited to hear since I'll be doing this whole application process soon knowing that Michigan medical students are so well-equipped, I'm feeling well-equipped myself to some degree.

Donovan Inniss:

Yeah, we do have that. Oh, the Residency Prep Course, I think is also pretty, pretty strong and important that we have at Michigan. So for me, emergency medicine in the first month is essentially going through all the differential diagnoses and then trying to pick up on common patient presentations. The second month is just ultrasound practice, because that's what we use in the ED day in and day out. And to get that hands-on experience, hours and hours of ultrasound experiences with one-on-one with fellows, ultrasound fellows was incredible. I feel like I would not have gotten that anywhere else potentially. But Michigan has done it again.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

And every graduating medical student from the University of Michigan has to do a Residency Prep Course. I teach in the OBGYN Residency Prep Course. It is one of my favorite lectures that I do every year. And what I also do is we have pregnant people who serve as models and we teach prenatal ultrasound to our fourth-year medical students in the Residency Prep Course who are going into OBGYN to learn how to do ultrasound. It is fun and the faculty and our fellows help teach in that. So there's emergency medicine, there is-

Donovan Inniss:

Surgery internal medicine.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Surgery internal medicine.

Donovan Inniss:

Orthopedic. Everyone has their own pretty much RPC essentially.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

And that also relates to what I was saying earlier about the at University of Michigan's Medical School, the people here really want to teach and medicine is an apprenticeship model, it has been since the days of Sir William Osler. We have been learning from our older colleagues who are more experienced in the field of medicine, and I can't tell you how many times I've been on the wards and residents have taken the time or attendings have taken the time, time that they may not necessarily always have to teach me something that I didn't know that would directly show up later on questions for my exams or in future clinical scenarios. And I can't tell you, on Fridays in my sub-Is, the excellent cardiology fellow would always take an extra hour to come down and show us interesting ultrasound techniques and ultrasound findings. That's not in any curriculum, that's not listed anywhere, and that's not part of their job description, but they do it because they care. They really want to help. But that's pretty unique to Michigan.

Carol Teener:

Very cool.

Donovan Inniss:

I think that segues into our final question. Carol.

Carol Teener:

Yes.

Donovan Inniss:

Dean Berman.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Yes.

Donovan Inniss:

Pratik and myself, what do you love about the University of Michigan Medical School?

Carol Teener:

I'll jump right in because it's the students and the faculty, they're genuine, they're kind. It's a great place to work and collaborate with people. It's a real joy to be around the meds students.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

She said what I was going to say. I've chosen to stay here at every step of my career because of medical students, because of residents and fellows, because it is a culture of continued education and of caring for patients in a comprehensive, holistic, very kind, caring way. I also will say, it's cutting edge. We have researchers that are moving the needle to care for people in novel, thoughtful ways. And it is inspirational to be part of that.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Everything that you guys said has been excellent. And I think one thing that we've been doing in this conversation is, we've really been focused on Michigan Medicine, but I'm going to broaden the scope. I love being in Ann Arbor as well. I love Ann Arbor. I ride my bike everywhere, I am a total tree hugger, it's Tree Town. I go to football games on Saturdays in the fall and watch Michigan win the National Championship. And I like going to Bill's Beer Garden, I like going to Joe's Pizza. I like going on nature trails all the time next to the Huron River. It's a beautiful town with amazing people and excellent coworkers. I really can't complain.

Donovan Inniss:

I will second everything you all said. I just feel like it is easy to be at Michigan Medicine, in the sense of feeling surrounded by community, by loved ones. It feels like a second home to me. I feel like I will likely end up back here way down the line at least, I think 100%-

Pratik Vadlamudi:

I sure hope so.

Donovan Inniss:

It has been amazing. And I think my favorite part is that you can come with any idea and you will find someone to bounce it off of or help you with that idea, that dream that you have. And I feel like that is special. No matter who you speak with, they'll be excited to help you out because you're a part of that Michigan family.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

I know the questions could go on forever, and I know when I was a pre-med, I had so many more questions than what we just answered, but I think we did a pretty good job covering what a lot of us were wondering about back then. And so we wanted to let Dean Berman and Carol get back to stocking the supply of snacks that they keep next to the admissions office. I know I'm always up there stealing from it. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and your advice today.

Carol Teener:

Thank you all. You're amazing.

Dr. Deborah Berman:

Thank you all. I am proud of you, Donovan, as you go to the next phase of your career. And Pratik, I can't wait to see where your career takes you. Thank you both.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

Thank you. Is there any way that students can keep in contact with the Medical School outside of this podcast? How else can they follow what's going on here?

Carol Teener:

They should follow @UMichMedSchool on social media and the student blogs, I love them. Dose of Reality, they should check it out.

Pratik Vadlamudi:

@UMichMedSchool on Instagram. Okay.

Donovan Inniss:

Thank you all so much to our listeners for all of you tuning into this special Michigan Medical School edition of Michigan Medicine Presents. Be sure to check out the show notes for links to related resources.